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  • This is a editing discussion – please focus on changes to implement on the wiki. For general discussion (including theories, speculation, and opinions), see s6e4 thread and Is Clarke dead? thread.

    Page Split

    As far as pages, there's three main options:

    1. Page follows body (i.e. Clarke has zero pages; Josephine has two pages, one for her first body and second for her new body)
    2. Page follows mind (i.e. one Clarke page, one Josephine page – now that Clarke is out of the picture, updates go to Josephine's page)
    3. Page follows mind+body combo (i.e. three pages: Clarke, original!Josephine, and Clarke!Josephine)

    The first option doesn't make sense to me. Clarke's history, etc. is NOT Josephine's history, so it doesn't make sense to rename page as Josephine and claim that it's her story. Josephine's story is on her first page, so that's where her story should continue. I also dislike option #3: it creates too many pages, especially when half of them will be near blank.

    So, I vote for #2. Follow the mind. That does mean merging the "Mr. Lightbourne" and "Russell Lightbourne" (and similar with Simone) since that's one mind. (There is no reason for Russell & Simone hosts pages, because we literally know nothing about the two hosts. On the other hand, Delilah page is kept plus a new Priya page.) The rest of my proposal below will be based on option #2.

    Host pages

    For host pages, e.g. Clarke and Delilah, I think we should put them, more or less, on pause.

    Status: alive. The body is still alive (and I'll argue so is the minds, see Thread:86182 for more) and from previous situations, we don't list character as dead until body is dead. E.g. when Ontari was brain dead, we listed her as "Alive (brain dead)" for a week. We can do something similar here, e.g. "Alive (host to Priya)".

    The rest of infobox: paused. That's to say Josie's/Priya's info (e.g. alias/titles, last appearance, etc) do NOT go to Clarke's/Delilah's pages.

    Throughout the Series, Killed Victims: paused or all updates make it clear that body is being controlled by someone else.

    Personality, Quotes: paused. Those are clearly Josie's/Priya's and not host body's.

    Appearances: this is a bit iffy. I faced a similar situation on another wiki I manage. What we did:

    • 'appears' only when mind appears (when we get real!Clarke)
    • 'mention' only when directly talking about real!Clarke (just saying "Clarke" is insufficient, saying "Clarke is Madi's mother" is sufficient for mention)
    • 'absent' otherwise - 'credit' goes to primary character actress is currently portraying (which is now Josie/Priya)

    Prime pages

    So now for the Primes, aka the parasites (or in The Host speak, the souls).

    Status: Alive. If we want to be more detailed "Alive {{c|in Clarke's body}}", maybe even add "<br>Deceased {{c|original body}}"

    Infobox image: Have two, one for original body, one for current body. (E.g. see w:c:lucifer:Lucifer for three-image infobox.)

    Actor info (lead paragraph & infobox): list both/all. For infobox, list primary actor first with parenthetical note with each, e.g. "JR Bourne {{c|host body}}<br>Sean Maguire {{c|original body}}".

    Physical Appearance: one paragraph on original body, another on host body.

    Appearances:

    • 'appears' only when mind appears (when we get fake!Clarke)
    • 'flashback' when we get flashbacks of past bodies but not of current one
    • 'mention' when Prime is mentioned
    • 'credit' otherwise - until primary character changes, i.e. host gets control of their body back

    The rest of the article: update, including infobox last appearance.

    Other pages

    Cast listing on episode & season page: If portraying both characters, list both characters. Otherwise list only character portraying. If absent, then list as "Eliza Taylor as Josephine Lightbourne (credit only)".

    Cast pages: List Eliza Taylor as portraying both characters.

    Text on various pages: make it clear who's in control of the body. If for some reason you need to use host's name to refer to Prime and it needs to be linked, then pipe link.

    Conclusion

    Above is my proposal, I welcome further input.

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    • Copying a few editing notes from Thread:86182:

      Iamkane wrote: However in terms of wiki or lore status "Dead" is acceptable, but "Host" might work as well For primes though, i think it's ok with "body - dead, mind - alive in..."

      Iamkane wrote: And just in addition, infoboxes have a "portrayed by" row. Should we then add current actors to the Primes? Like Eliza and JR to Josie and Mr.lightbourne

      Starforce13 wrote: I think we should only use "dead" if the body is dead.

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    • I saw in Help:Infobox that it's possible to make switchable info

      So i suggest to combine pages for characters who share the same personality. Like Mr.lightbourne and Russell is the same person, but different characters

      In conclusion, i vote for "one page per mind" option

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    • Iamkane wrote: I saw in Help:Infobox that it's possible to make switchable info

      Are you talking about "Parser functions" – if so, then it's not what you think. Parser function allows things like: coder creates parser function for gender, editor inputs "F" into infobox & clicks publish, displayed is "Female". This is static info. It doesn't create tabs or switch for the display.

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    • No, like this one: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orc But instead of 5e, 4e... make it to switch between "1st generation - OG Primes", "7th generation - Current Primes" and go on

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    • re:Iamkane, we can't do that because we use portable infoboxes. The example you showed is using the old infoboxes. never mind, they use #vardefine, which I'm not familiar with (and I'm not sure if it's enabled on this wiki) and it's not available on this wiki (would require FANDOM staff to upload extension).

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    • Regarding Prime generation/number, I believe we've only been told: Russell VII, Priya VII, and Miranda VIII. No one else's generation was told, so I don't think we should make numbers up.

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    • Janus100 wrote:

      1. Page follows body (i.e. Clarke has zero pages; Josephine has two pages, one for her first body and second for her new body)

      I think "Page Follows Body" option should be defined as - the page is about everything done by that body regardless of whose mind it is. With that definition, it would mean that Clarke's page is for everything done by Clarke as well as everything done by the new Josephine!Clarke - because they're the ones in Clarke's body. (The way it's defined here - is like it's following Josephine's mind instead of the bodies. If we're following the bodies, then we have a Josephine body and a Clarke body; so Clarke's page would remain since Clarke's body still exists.)

      So, my proposal is keep 2 pages:

      • The original Prime. This will only include things done by the original Prime before they died first. e.g Josephine Lightbourne page would be for just events that happened to her before she was shot by her father. It would end by mentioning that she's occupied other hosts and her current host is Clarke.
      • The host page - This would include everything about the character before and after they got "possessed" by a Prime. So, forexample, everything Clarke does next week should still go on Clarke's page... but of course making it clear that she's doing it as Josephine. Likewise, everything Priya!Delilah does from now on would still continue to go on Delilah's page.


      And even historically, everything that Raven and the others did when they had the ALIE chip... it all went to their pages. We didn't create a new page for Raven just because some other entity was the one in control of her body/mind.

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    • re:Starforce13, well, basically I completely disagree. I think Clarke's page should follow Clarke and Josephine's page should follow Josephine. Keep each person's page separate, where person is defined by consciousness, not by physical form.

      When it's Josephine doing something or saying something, it's Josephine. It doesn't make sense to put Josephine's personality or quotes on Clarke's page (and to keep Josie's page empty because by your logic that's not Josie's personality). Not to mention character history completely doesn't line up. If Josephine is doing something, it should be included on her page.

      My proposal also easily deals with flashbacks in previous host bodies since it's still the same Prime. Your proposal would require to create new pages for each new host body or to exclude the information from the wiki. By your proposal, we should rename Clarke's page to Josephine's name, which I oppose in the strongest terms possible.

      And your Raven example is completely misleading and historically false. You're claiming that I'm proposing to make a Raven-ALIE page which is completely false (that would be #3 option which I opposed). I'm saying that when ALIE is possessing Raven, the primary article is ALIE (btw, if you look at ALIE article, in the infobox, we do list Lindsey Morgan as portraying ALIE which matches with my proposal; the throughout the series section is mostly empty, but it should include all of ALIE's actions, including those when she's possessing Raven's body). I'm not saying that info can't also be included on Raven's page – in fact, in my proposal, it says that it can be included as long as it's clear the body is controlled.

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    • Janus100 wrote: Your proposal would require to create new pages for each new host body or to exclude the information from the wiki. By your proposal, we should rename Clarke's page to Josephine's name, which I oppose in the strongest terms possible.

      I didn't mean creating new pages for the host bodies or renaming any pages. The current pages (Clarke, Delilah etc) are the host pages. Clarke is a host; Delilah is a host; with or without the Prime. And the existing pages (such as Josephine Lightbourne, "Mr. Lightbourne") are already the Prime pages. No new pages would be created. That's the part I care about strongly and we seem to be on the same page - that current pages remain unmoved and no new pages.

      The only real difference seems to be where to put the content for things done by a host who's "possessed" by a Prime. I was suggesting keeping it on the host's page mostly for context since within the show, the main characters will be referring to her as Clarke - and I believe even CW synopses will use "Clarke", "Delilah." But, I don't have a strong preference on this as long as it's consistent.

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    • You cutoff my quote: "My proposal also easily deals with flashbacks in previous host bodies since it's still the same Prime. Your proposal would require to create new pages for each new host body or to exclude the information from the wiki."

      Your proposal requires separate pages for each body or information being excluded from the wiki. My proposal keeps everything related to one Prime on one Prime's page, regardless the number of hosts. My proposal requires less stub pages by merging each consciousness to a single page.

      I also disagree on your assessment of moves & new pages. With your proposal, I'd say "Mr. Lightbourne" & "Mrs. Lightbourne" still need to be moved. With my proposal, they should be merged into Russell Lightbourne and Simone Lightbourne. By my proposal one new article needs to be created, but I still come out with one less page than your proposal. If flashbacks show other host bodies, your proposal means created new page for each, while mine means zero new pages.

      And putting Prime's info on host body page doesn't make sense in the context of the character. The actions are being done by the Prime, the personality is the Primes, the quotes are the Primes, etc, etc, etc. That info belongs on the Prime's page (otherwise why do we even have those pages if they're just going to be empty stubs).

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    • So i am thinking about something like this. I temporally took infobox quest for testing, since it's not used anywhere

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    • Okay, I see what you mean - if we need to take care of the previous host bodies for the same Prime. My version wasn't accounting for intermediate hosts - just the original and the current.

      In that case, then I agree. Information about all versions of a Prime should be on one page. So, we should merge Mr. Lightbourne into Russell; Mrs. Lightbourne into Simone; Everything Josephine!Clarke does will go to Josephine's page.

      Delilah can remain unchanged until we see if Priya has enough story. With this show, she could get killed before we learn much about Priya.

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    • re:Iamkane

      I think I see what you're trying to show... but I'm not convinced by it.

      • Are we changing the Characters infobox (thus impacting all characters) or are we creating a separate infobox for Primes?
        • If editing existing infobox template... that seems like it's a mess.
        • If creating a semi-duplicate template, that creates work down the line. Every time character infobox gets edited, it'd require editing this 'mirror' template.
      • For most fields, it doesn't make sense to separate them - it's not like a video game where each level has it's own stats.
        • Many fields, e.g. family, will be same for Josephine, regardless of which body she has.
        • For me, it's actually more confusing to have two status fields – to list a character as both dead and alive without explaining what that means. Something like "Alive {{c|within host}}<br>Deceased {{c|original body}}" is easier to understand, at least for me.
        • Perhaps panel the appearances section & image, but leave everything else normal/singular...
      • By the way, we don't have generation numbers for all of them. We know Miranda is 8 while Priya & Russell are 7. But for the others, is it's currently a '?'.
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    • Without using a new infobox, we might come to this
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    • re:Iamkane – I'm not sure how it's on your computer, but to me, when you're using panels there's these two white dots and they block the "I" from view & over all, make the switch look ugly. The gallery within image field creates a more blocky switch (though custom site CSS may be able to fix that...). but at least it's all readable without random dots obscuring the view.

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    • yeah, the dots are only on this blog page, idk why

      everywhere else seems ok

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    • just saying, there is also another blonde girl in the promo (Skylar Radzion). And i'm pretty sure that she might be the first attempt to inset Josie's mind into someone. So what about this type of situations, she's also a different character?

      Prime + Host tabs seems reasonable, but what if there will be intermediate one?

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    • Okay, I posted a version in my sandbox. I'm still not sure what we want to do... I think path of least resistance may be having a switch on photo but nothing else...


      Side note: If you want to play around with a template's code, I'd recommend doing it within your own userspace, e.g. for my sandbox example, I used user:janus100/template as my infobox template. This way, no one can claim that you made a mess of a 'real' templates and it doesn't matter if you revert your edits or not.

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    • Prime, Host, Other Host ... ah, no.

      Gallery image is easiest way since labels are coded at the end page & each page can have different labels (unlike panels/sections where labels are coded into template). But there's also other tricks... we can have many labels - the unused ones will just not show up (latest sandbox example, there's 10 tab options but only the used 3 are showing up).

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    • In the infobox tabber for photos, we could use something like "Prime" | "Josie III" | "Josie VII"... etc if we encounter multiple hosts. If the name is too long for the tabs, we could do "Host II" | "Host IV" etc.

      I don't think we need a tabber for "Portrayed By." We could just list the actors the same way we do with other characters portrayed by multiple actors... like Madi.

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    • Yup, i'd stick with the second option with 10 tabs. Because i just checked imdb and there will be yet another actress to play Josephine in episode 10 IMDB

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    • Do we even need to change the infobox or create a new one? Couldn't we just use the current character one with just a tabber for the image where they can be labelled as needed?

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    • If the only change we want is multiple images, then we can use the existing {{Character}}. Whether we edit it or not depends on what we want end result to look like.

      Like I said above, "Gallery image is easiest way since labels are coded at the end page & each page can have different labels". The panels/sections, I think display better & also allow easier coding at end page. Check out user:janus100/sandbox for three examples. To implement that, it's only a small amount of code added to existing infobox template and it shouldn't interfere with any current usage.

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    • I like how you've added other labels - like child, teen, adult, season versions etc - which can be used for other existing characters, not just Primes. That makes it worthy adding the panel code to the infobox.

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    • One disadvantage to panels, is that the order is fixed (e.g. adult will always show up before child). Or this can be viewed as an advantage, since it'd provide same order wiki-wide. I'm thinking of reverse-order seasons (latest season first, earliest season last) ... similar to how I did reversed age in my Octavia sandbox example.

      Edit: Actually, reverse for host/prime (and generation numbers) too. We want to see latest host of the primes first, rather than older versions (think Russell, Simone, Ryker, etc. rather than Josie).

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    • Yeah, I think we should consistently see the current version of the character first. So, I support reverse-order seasons too. That also means, it's an advantage to have it fixed to adult first.

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    • I think the current hosts picture for the "Prime" should be listed first

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    • Wellsworth96 wrote: I think the current hosts picture for the "Prime" should be listed first

      That is the current implementation, however it requires people using parameters instead of overwriting it with gallery.

      This is good code*:

      |image prime = Josephine_Ada_Lightbourne_6x02.png
      |image host = 6x04_ElizaAsJosie.png
      

      This is bad code*:

      |image = 
      <gallery orientation="portrait">
      Josephine_Ada_Lightbourne_6x02.png|Prime
      6x04_ElizaAsJosie.png|Host
      </gallery>
      


      * for character infoboxes – for other infoboxes, gallery may be used in reasonable circumstances.

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    • A question for you, Janus100: Should we consider Josephine a "Major" character as she's now being played by a Starring cast member?

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    • Umm, I can see this going both ways. So as a simplistic solution, I guess it can depend on how long Josie is portrayed by Eliza Taylor. If it's pretty short (e.g. Lindsey Morgan playing ALIE), then stick to 'recurring'. But if Josie is going to be the starring role for a while, let's say multiple full episodes, than I guess she is a 'major' character.

      As far as top navigation, I'm not going to change things (yet), but it's fine if you want to get started with the other tasks (i.e. article category & lead; templates).

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    • For the Prime infobox on the Russell character page, should the age read somewhere between 150-200 years (becuase the Prime was originially roughly 40 years old and then 150 years passed right?) 

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    • By the way, why do we use "Major" instead of "Main" character?

      • "Major" means the character plays a major/big role in the story regardless of whether they're main or recurring. For example, I would consider Madi and Diyoza to be major characters for season 5.
      • "Main" character means the character is played by a main (starring) cast member.

      I also find it redundant to use phrases like "she is portrayed by 'cast member'...." Obviously, the fact that they're playing the character makes them a "cast member."

      It's not a big deal... just a little misuse of the terminology that bugs me.

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    • Starforce: On the wiki a "Major" character is a starring cast member, ones shown in the opening.

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    • speaking of cast members and characters
      i'd like to ask you about appearances, because things are getting complicated.

      Appearances Navbox Appearances Page (Cast)
      No sign of Clarke's mind at all If she never speaks or shows her presence through the entire episode, her status will be set only as Mentioned (or even Absent if no one will remember her which is unlikely). This is different, here, i believe, we mark actors appearances, therefore Clarke should get +1 because of Eliza? or we also leave just a blank space because there is no other option for this type of situations.
      Clarke will somehow contradict Josie If we clearly will hear her voice or thoughts or even memories, then i guess it should be Appeared If this one <- is right, then there won't be a problem and we mark her green.
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    • Wellsworth96 wrote: Starforce: On the wiki a "Major" character is a starring cast member, ones shown in the opening.

      Yes, I know that's what the wiki has been doing. I was challenging that terminology because it's incorrect. It should be "Main" not "Major."

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    • Age - More or less how we do it for other characters, put a chronological age & current body age. Chronologically 'best guess at flashback age' + 236 years. I think on Josie page, there's a third age, arrival to Alpha – I get the idea, the preference would be death of original body age, but with lack of info, arrival to Alpha works too.

      'Major' vs 'Main', portrayed by 'cast member' - Not directly related to hosts & primes, so perhaps a separate thread (and maybe when we're less busy, say hiatus or at least in an off-week [one of which is coming up after next episode]).

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    • Agreed, I will bring up the character description semantics discussion in about 2 weeks when things are quiet.

      Ages - yes, we should use the two (or 3) ages similar to what we do with Clarke's group.

      Appearances - we should list Clarke as absent/mentioned unless we see her in like flashbacks or hear her voice. Otherwise, the appearance would be credited to Josie.

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    • Appearances

      Iamkane's table is regarding 'host' page (i.e. Clarke & Delilah), not 'prime' page (i.e. Josie & Priya). I assume "Appearances Navbox" is referring to {{Appearances-S6}} and "Appearances Page (Cast)" is Character Appearances (kinda working on separate Cast Appearances page, see User:Janus100/sandbox-Cast since character appearance doesn't always equate with cast appearance).

      I basically agree with the left half of Iamkane's table. To add to it:

      {{Appearances-S6}}
      Host page Prime page
      Appears We clearly hear/see host. E.g. Clarke wrestles back control of her body for a moment or we clearly hear Clarke's voice or thoughts.
      EXCLUDES: we see host's body but it's not under their control.
      Appearance of character (including within a host's body).
      Flashback We see host's memories (including archive footage) but present-day host is absent. We see prime's memories.
      Mentioned No sign of host's mind at all, but she is mentioned (including name, old photos). Or corpse is shown.
      EXCLUDES: we see host's (live) body but it's not under their control.
      Prime is mentioned (including name, old photos). Or prime's chip or corpse (of latest host) is shown.
      Credit n/a (If actress is credited, credit goes to primary role she currently plays.) Actress is credited but character does not appear nor is mentioned.
      Absent No sign of host's mind (voice, thoughts, memories) nor mentioned. No visual or mention. Actress not credited.

      As always with the appearances tables, give priority to the 'highest' row (i.e. if character is seen in archive footage and name is mentioned in present day new-scene, give priority to flashback).


      Regarding the right half of Iamkane's table, i.e. Character Appearances, I'd have to disagree. Based on previous discussions over that page, when it says 'character appearances' they really do mean exactly that. The fact that 'cast' redirects there is a misnomer.

      The page has it's own separate color system and doesn't care about mentions or credit. So I see Clarke being listed as 'absent' unless she makes her presence known. I kinda tempted to remove the 'Cast' row (& Cast redirect...) because that'd remove half of the confusion over that page.

      Side note: This is another page impacted by Josie being a main/major character.

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    • TheOmegaWerewolf wrote: For the Prime infobox on the Russell character page, should the age read somewhere between 150-200 years (becuase the Prime was originially roughly 40 years old and then 150 years passed right?) 

      236 years actually.

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    • Did not want to raise the old topic, but i think the question is still relatable: Should we add a new symbol like "" {{d} for Primes who do not have a body, but "frozen" in the mind drives? I'd like to suggest some:

      ⚜️



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