Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29929311-20160912190346/@comment-75.121.191.145-20170117225346

I don't see the Arkers as having abandoned anyone? From my understanding, they were already in space when all hell broke loose on Earth. What were they supposed to do, go back on the ground that they rightly assumed was toxic and dangerous? How were they to know there was even anyone else on the ground that was alive? And even if they did, how would coming down to the ground to die and suffer with them help? The only thing that these 12 space stations are guilty of is the murder of those on the ship that Becca was on. And when it comes to Becca, she wasn't trying to right any wrong but her own. Why in the world would the people on the Ark be held responsible for her ​mistake? Saying that Becca tried to right the wrong of the Arkers who chose to survive in space after her ​creation tried to wipe out humanity on the ground, doesn't make any sense. Place blame where blame is due -- on Becca.

Actually from the Grounders perspective, 90 years later, less than a hundered innocent teens unknowingly landed on trikru territory, and just as unknowingly crossed a border, which Lexa decided was enough reason to try and kill them all. The antagonism the Grounders feel towards Arkers certainly makes sense later, but in season 1 it was just unprovoked, bloodthirsty and cruel. Of course Anya gave her reasoning as being their burnt village, which Clarke told her was an accident, but in the end it's a moot point anyways since the flares happened after​ the Grounders were already trying to kill them.

Believe me, I know Raven's no sweetheart, and I never woobify these characters or tone down the things they've done. They've murdered people -- Grounders -- to survive, but it's this morally grey complexity of their characters that I love so much. Clarke, Bellamy, Raven, Monty, Jasper, all of them, watching them survive while making heart-rending, impossible and sometimes disasterous decisions is what makes this show so good.

So, Lexa wasn't torturing Raven for blowing up Grounders from before this alliance they just started, she was torturing her for trying to poison her, so Raven's past with the Grounders shouldn't matter at all at that particular moment. But when Lexa finds out the truth she decides to torture and kill the man responsible -- her own man, one she obviously cares for very much. I saw how much it pained her, it was one of the few scenes of hers where I actually could. But two wrongs don't make a right. And Abby's line of I guess we're not so different is very telling here. The way the Arkers had been living was harsh, and ​wrong -- ​Abby's own punishment was wrong. And using the excuse of 'our ways are harsh because that's the only way we survive' is wrong. Just because your society ​​tells you this is the way you should live, doesn't mean it should be that way. And Lexa, who didn't like the laws of her own society, decided to go along with them instead of change them.

Before I go on, please don't think I'm saying this out of hate. I found Lexa very intriguing. It's rare to see a female character allowed to be so unapologetically pragmatic and stoic. But the choices she made could be just as cruel as any of the Arkers. I know killing Gustus was probably the single most painful thing for her since Costia's death. But torturing and killing someone else because that's what your society demands, is just crazy to me. Death, torture and war are not the only ways, and as the Commander of these 12 clans and leader of this coallition that she fought for, she should've shown a better one long before Clarke came along to show it to her in season 3.

I promise I'm not evil; trying to put down your fav and hurt you. Like how you see Bellamy one way and I see him another, this is just how I see Lexa. I don't believe she was bad in any way, I think she ultimately wanted peace but she was a tragic character who met a tragic end.

I guess when it comes to the Lexa and Alycia, I just didn't connect with her. While the idea of the character is awesome (her basic premise reminds me of Boudica), I just thought the character itself felt really flat to me.

And I know she never wanted ​to leave Clarke to be tortured to death in MW. That'd be awful. But she still did it. And like the Gustus thing -- doing it because that's what was expected of her, is not an excuse. Though, I'm not sure what you mean by it was expected of her. Who expected that of her? It seems like to me, after what Lincoln said to Indra, how Lexa's choice shamed them, and how Indra, while obeying her Commander -- because that's what was expected of her​ -- didn't seem all that thrilled with it, and then Queen Nia was able to exploit what her people seemed to think was a weakness in how she betrayed her own allies, I'm not sure who expected that decision of her? It seemed more a political move to keep a common enemy. She was never planning on doing that, betraying Clarke, but the option came up when Emerson made the deal and she took it. I'm sure she took it thinking it was better for her people overall. But that's something all of these characters do, making the hard choices that others don't have to.

I honestly don't think Clarke would've done the same thing. This is a whole other argument I know, but what Clarke, Bellamy and Monty did were not the same thing as what Lexa did (stopping killers from murdering anymore vs. betraying your allies and leaving them to be tortured to death). And that scene itself, of Lexa trying to push the responsiblity onto Clarke, just irritated me. Clarke didn't deserve that at all. Lexa abandoned Clarke and her people -- she did that. She knows it, Clarke knows it, we all know it, yet the moment Clarke is able to be angry ​at the person who hurt her and left her and her people to die, thereby putting her in a position where she ​​had to make such a difficult choice, Lexa turns it around, making Clarke feel guilty. It was hurtful to someone she'd already hurt. I just...I don't like that scene at all.

And then her ultimatum of bow to me and become the 13th clan or...what? What would she have done if Clarke had said no? Of course Clarke had to say yes, and Lexa knew she would to protect her people. And so she got the power of Wanheda, getting Clarke to bow to her, the woman who betrayed her in such a way that she'll never be the same ever again, without having to kill her of course. Clexa loved each other, but doing that to someone -- all of that -- it honestly just left a bad taste in my mouth. So yes, I still considered Lexa the foil to Clarke and all the other mains. I believe she was trying to save Clarke, but she was also trying to save herself and her position which she weakened herself by leaving Clarke in the Mountain, not expecting her to actually defeat them.

Are you saying Bellamy betrayed Clarke by killing the Grounders? I'm not sure how that was a betrayal of her. Lexa, yes. Clarke, no. I mean, it definitely messed things up politically, but Clarke really didn't seem to care all the much otherwise. The Grounders are not her people. Unless there was something else I'm forgetting.

She sacrificed herself twice​. I mean, if she hadn't of left Clarke and the others to die, if she'd kept a stable alliance with the Arkers instead of starting all this turmoil, who's to say that she would've had to? She made a very bad call in the Mountain, and she paid for it with her life. You say she sacrificed herself, to me it was more like she brought it onto herself. She tried to change, tried to become a better leader that Clarke was showing her she could ​be. But it was too late, and the past eventually catches up with you.

I'm sorry that my pov is an insult to her character. But what I think isn't the same as you -- but we already knew that going into this -- so I'm not sure what else to tell you. I'm not trying to hurt you by insulting a character you like, just like I hope you're not trying to hurt me by telling me how bad you think Bellamy is. It's just what you think, and that's ok. People are different. It's this mindset of I'm right, you're wrong that I hate in this fandom. It's become an US vs THEM mentality and it's unhealthy. Instead of just accepting people's different opinions, they get offended and call each other lesbophobic or racist. Sure there's people who ​are like that, but not everyone with a differing opinion is. I'm not saying you're calling me that, I just don't want you to think that this all because I hate you or want to put you down. It's just me *shrugs* I'm a decent person, I swear. I'm just not a Lexa fan.

I wasn't trying to insult Australians, I just always see fans saying that as the reason why Eliza apparently curses so much. I just assumed that means that Australians curse more? I was just saying that it if it's true, that's no excuse. But now I know better. It's just an Eliza thing.

I don't follow the actors, but I'm glad Bob's supportive of Clexa. It makes me sad that I always see fans upset about Clexa's sending him hate. None of the actors deserve hate for anything they say or do from any part of the fandom. I'm really glad he's supportive of bisexuality, biphobia is prevalent in this fandom. The more people standing up for it the better.

You think Bellarke is forced; I think after what will probably end up being four seasons of a deep, caring relationship until something overtly romantic happens, is realistic and sloooow (don't get me wrong I love​ the slow burn). I think Clexa was forced after Lexa kissed Clarke just a few weeks after having to stab her boyfriend in the heart, then 3 months after Lexa makes the decision to leave Clarke to be tortured to death, she holds her against her will in a tower where Clarke spits in her face, calls her a bitch, and comes close to killing her, and yet, a week later they start to fall in love; but you don't. I know you see that very differently, and I'm not expecting you to see it my way. Agree to disagree.

Eliza and Bob don't like it...I don't care? I know that sounds mean but, they're actors. This is their job that they chose to do. And as far as I know neither of them are awful people. They're at least cordial to each other, right? So as long as they can be respectful and professional then they can act out a romance if that's what comes. I'm sure they've both had to do worse things in this industry. And if the chemistry ​​I ​see now is them forcing it, then that's fine by me. I'm absolutely enjoying it anyways! I watch this show because I like the story and characters, not for the actors.

I'm happy that Eliza and Alycia liked Clexa so much. More positivity for any fellow lgbt who shipped it. The world always needs more positivity, and hopefully any fans they had beforehand will see that and emulate it.

Ok, things are not translating well again, and I'm sorry. When I said "my ship is better than your ship" I was refering to the people who use words like toxic and abusive to describe a ship they don't like. They don't give reasons, or at least only ridiculous ones. There are ​so many people ​who've suffered, or are currently suffering in actual abusive, toxic relationships. Shippers saying these things because these are "bad words" that make the ship they don't like sound so awful, are trivializing experiences of real people who live it. I mean...do you understand why I feel that everyone should be a little sensitive to it? I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was trying to explain why I needed more than just "Bellarke is toxic." And you did give me reasons, I don't agree with them, but that's not the point, lol. But again, I am sorry for the mixed messages.

Alrighty, my Bellamy thoughts are gonna take forever, but this is already a freaking novel (par for the course for you and I) and I truly don't want to irritate you (I'm sorry if I do) so I'm gonna take a break here until you reply back if you want to continue.