Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29929311-20160912190346/@comment-95.83.253.180-20170129233326

75.121.191.145 wrote: I don't see the Arkers as having abandoned anyone? From my understanding, they were already in space when all hell broke loose on Earth. What were they supposed to do, go back on the ground that they rightly assumed was toxic and dangerous? How were they to know there was even anyone else on the ground that was alive? And even if they did, how would coming down to the ground to die and suffer with them help? The only thing that these 12 space stations are guilty of is the murder of those on the ship that Becca was on. And when it comes to Becca, she wasn't trying to right any wrong but her own. Why in the world would the people on the Ark be held responsible for her ​mistake? Saying that Becca tried to right the wrong of the Arkers who chose to survive in space after her ​creation tried to wipe out humanity on the ground, doesn't make any sense. Place blame where blame is due -- on Becca.

Actually from the Grounders perspective, 90 years later, less than a hundered innocent teens unknowingly landed on trikru territory, and just as unknowingly crossed a border, which Lexa decided was enough reason to try and kill them all. The antagonism the Grounders feel towards Arkers certainly makes sense later, but in season 1 it was just unprovoked, bloodthirsty and cruel. Of course Anya gave her reasoning as being their burnt village, which Clarke told her was an accident, but in the end it's a moot point anyways since the flares happened after​ the Grounders were already trying to kill them.

Believe me, I know Raven's no sweetheart, and I never woobify these characters or tone down the things they've done. They've murdered people -- Grounders -- to survive, but it's this morally grey complexity of their characters that I love so much. Clarke, Bellamy, Raven, Monty, Jasper, all of them, watching them survive while making heart-rending, impossible and sometimes disasterous decisions is what makes this show so good.

So, Lexa wasn't torturing Raven for blowing up Grounders from before this alliance they just started, she was torturing her for trying to poison her, so Raven's past with the Grounders shouldn't matter at all at that particular moment. But when Lexa finds out the truth she decides to torture and kill the man responsible -- her own man, one she obviously cares for very much. I saw how much it pained her, it was one of the few scenes of hers where I actually could. But two wrongs don't make a right. And Abby's line of I guess we're not so different is very telling here. The way the Arkers had been living was harsh, and ​wrong -- ​Abby's own punishment was wrong. And using the excuse of 'our ways are harsh because that's the only way we survive' is wrong. Just because your society ​​tells you this is the way you should live, doesn't mean it should be that way. And Lexa, who didn't like the laws of her own society, decided to go along with them instead of change them.

Before I go on, please don't think I'm saying this out of hate. I found Lexa very intriguing. It's rare to see a female character allowed to be so unapologetically pragmatic and stoic. But the choices she made could be just as cruel as any of the Arkers. I know killing Gustus was probably the single most painful thing for her since Costia's death. But torturing and killing someone else because that's what your society demands, is just crazy to me. Death, torture and war are not the only ways, and as the Commander of these 12 clans and leader of this coallition that she fought for, she should've shown a better one long before Clarke came along to show it to her in season 3.

I promise I'm not evil; trying to put down your fav and hurt you. Like how you see Bellamy one way and I see him another, this is just how I see Lexa. I don't believe she was bad in any way, I think she ultimately wanted peace but she was a tragic character who met a tragic end.

I guess when it comes to the Lexa and Alycia, I just didn't connect with her. While the idea of the character is awesome (her basic premise reminds me of Boudica), I just thought the character itself felt really flat to me.

And I know she never wanted ​to leave Clarke to be tortured to death in MW. That'd be awful. But she still did it. And like the Gustus thing -- doing it because that's what was expected of her, is not an excuse. Though, I'm not sure what you mean by it was expected of her. Who expected that of her? It seems like to me, after what Lincoln said to Indra, how Lexa's choice shamed them, and how Indra, while obeying her Commander -- because that's what was expected of her​ -- didn't seem all that thrilled with it, and then Queen Nia was able to exploit what her people seemed to think was a weakness in how she betrayed her own allies, I'm not sure who expected that decision of her? It seemed more a political move to keep a common enemy. She was never planning on doing that, betraying Clarke, but the option came up when Emerson made the deal and she took it. I'm sure she took it thinking it was better for her people overall. But that's something all of these characters do, making the hard choices that others don't have to.

I honestly don't think Clarke would've done the same thing. This is a whole other argument I know, but what Clarke, Bellamy and Monty did were not the same thing as what Lexa did (stopping killers from murdering anymore vs. betraying your allies and leaving them to be tortured to death). And that scene itself, of Lexa trying to push the responsiblity onto Clarke, just irritated me. Clarke didn't deserve that at all. Lexa abandoned Clarke and her people -- she did that. She knows it, Clarke knows it, we all know it, yet the moment Clarke is able to be angry ​at the person who hurt her and left her and her people to die, thereby putting her in a position where she ​​had to make such a difficult choice, Lexa turns it around, making Clarke feel guilty. It was hurtful to someone she'd already hurt. I just...I don't like that scene at all.

And then her ultimatum of bow to me and become the 13th clan or...what? What would she have done if Clarke had said no? Of course Clarke had to say yes, and Lexa knew she would to protect her people. And so she got the power of Wanheda, getting Clarke to bow to her, the woman who betrayed her in such a way that she'll never be the same ever again, without having to kill her of course. Clexa loved each other, but doing that to someone -- all of that -- it honestly just left a bad taste in my mouth. So yes, I still considered Lexa the foil to Clarke and all the other mains. I believe she was trying to save Clarke, but she was also trying to save herself and her position which she weakened herself by leaving Clarke in the Mountain, not expecting her to actually defeat them.

Are you saying Bellamy betrayed Clarke by killing the Grounders? I'm not sure how that was a betrayal of her. Lexa, yes. Clarke, no. I mean, it definitely messed things up politically, but Clarke really didn't seem to care all the much otherwise. The Grounders are not her people. Unless there was something else I'm forgetting.

She sacrificed herself twice​. I mean, if she hadn't of left Clarke and the others to die, if she'd kept a stable alliance with the Arkers instead of starting all this turmoil, who's to say that she would've had to? She made a very bad call in the Mountain, and she paid for it with her life. You say she sacrificed herself, to me it was more like she brought it onto herself. She tried to change, tried to become a better leader that Clarke was showing her she could ​be. But it was too late, and the past eventually catches up with you.

I'm sorry that my pov is an insult to her character. But what I think isn't the same as you -- but we already knew that going into this -- so I'm not sure what else to tell you. I'm not trying to hurt you by insulting a character you like, just like I hope you're not trying to hurt me by telling me how bad you think Bellamy is. It's just what you think, and that's ok. People are different. It's this mindset of I'm right, you're wrong that I hate in this fandom. It's become an US vs THEM mentality and it's unhealthy. Instead of just accepting people's different opinions, they get offended and call each other lesbophobic or racist. Sure there's people who ​are like that, but not everyone with a differing opinion is. I'm not saying you're calling me that, I just don't want you to think that this all because I hate you or want to put you down. It's just me *shrugs* I'm a decent person, I swear. I'm just not a Lexa fan.

I wasn't trying to insult Australians, I just always see fans saying that as the reason why Eliza apparently curses so much. I just assumed that means that Australians curse more? I was just saying that it if it's true, that's no excuse. But now I know better. It's just an Eliza thing.

I don't follow the actors, but I'm glad Bob's supportive of Clexa. It makes me sad that I always see fans upset about Clexa's sending him hate. None of the actors deserve hate for anything they say or do from any part of the fandom. I'm really glad he's supportive of bisexuality, biphobia is prevalent in this fandom. The more people standing up for it the better.

You think Bellarke is forced; I think after what will probably end up being four seasons of a deep, caring relationship until something overtly romantic happens, is realistic and sloooow (don't get me wrong I love​ the slow burn). I think Clexa was forced after Lexa kissed Clarke just a few weeks after having to stab her boyfriend in the heart, then 3 months after Lexa makes the decision to leave Clarke to be tortured to death, she holds her against her will in a tower where Clarke spits in her face, calls her a bitch, and comes close to killing her, and yet, a week later they start to fall in love; but you don't. I know you see that very differently, and I'm not expecting you to see it my way. Agree to disagree.

Eliza and Bob don't like it...I don't care? I know that sounds mean but, they're actors. This is their job that they chose to do. And as far as I know neither of them are awful people. They're at least cordial to each other, right? So as long as they can be respectful and professional then they can act out a romance if that's what comes. I'm sure they've both had to do worse things in this industry. And if the chemistry ​​I ​see now is them forcing it, then that's fine by me. I'm absolutely enjoying it anyways! I watch this show because I like the story and characters, not for the actors.

I'm happy that Eliza and Alycia liked Clexa so much. More positivity for any fellow lgbt who shipped it. The world always needs more positivity, and hopefully any fans they had beforehand will see that and emulate it.

Ok, things are not translating well again, and I'm sorry. When I said "my ship is better than your ship" I was refering to the people who use words like toxic and abusive to describe a ship they don't like. They don't give reasons, or at least only ridiculous ones. There are ​so many people ​who've suffered, or are currently suffering in actual abusive, toxic relationships. Shippers saying these things because these are "bad words" that make the ship they don't like sound so awful, are trivializing experiences of real people who live it. I mean...do you understand why I feel that everyone should be a little sensitive to it? I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was trying to explain why I needed more than just "Bellarke is toxic." And you did give me reasons, I don't agree with them, but that's not the point, lol. But again, I am sorry for the mixed messages.

Alrighty, my Bellamy thoughts are gonna take forever, but this is already a freaking novel (par for the course for you and I) and I truly don't want to irritate you (I'm sorry if I do) so I'm gonna take a break here until you reply back if you want to continue. Hey, I promised I would get around to replying to this one too so finally I have got the chance. Ok so the plot here with the arkers is a bit unclear if you ask me. As you said yourself though, those people were already up in space before ALIE unleashed havoc on earth. They never came down again, as you saw yourself, Becca was the only one who did, and against the will of the other scientists who knew about it. But if you ask me, something must have gone wrong with the Earth even before that. That is why Becca tried (and failed) to give humanity another solution with ALIE if all else failed. That is why the 'Ark' as it was called was born. I don't know how or why but all arrows point to a premeditated plan that people were selected based on possibly wealth, occupation and country (do you remember all the different countries flags visible on the Ark in season 1 which symbolised where all the residents came from?). And then they were all put together on the Ark, sent up to space where it would appear, some of the top scientists, including Becca, joined them. But they did indeed abandon the others to die in that sense. It is likely that the grounders where at the time, ordinary working class citizens who they did not cater for in their desperation to survive. Do you remember the brief description about the boat people that we have never met yet? If I'm not mistaken, they were mentioned briefly by Lincoln and it was discovered that they managed to survive the worst of the apocalypse by staying out on the oceans. So basically, I think it was clear that there was actually a lot more going on here than was only ever touched upon but you have to join the dots, I think whatever Becca's plan was, she was actually trying to save a probably already dying world. From what you ask? At a guess I would say long term effects of pollution. Maybe nuclear warfare too, who knows. But in the end, she just destroyed it completely with ALIE because it went wrong. And I know the books don't follow the tv show exactly but in the books there is no ALIE and that is not the reason the Arkers up in space either. They don't have grounders in the books but rather 'Earthborns' and I don't like the books because it demonizes them as an enemy all the time. You don't hear about the Earthborns other than when they are attacking, kidnapping or spying pretty much. But at least the show tells their side of the story. So yeah, I can understand why the grounders would be pissed. In politics, money talks, status talks and oppression and colonization sucks. I can appreciate their perspective in the sense of the story. I don't think it was unprovoked at all for the grounders to be on their defence. You saw what the mountain men did to them too. The Sky people they probably thought would be just the same. In history I learned that in actual tribes, when they felt under threat from a foreign source, they would create human effigies as a warning for them to stay away. I think that's what the purpose of Jasper's spear to the chest was (not saying that it was ok or anything btw). According to J Roth, he had originally even planned for Jssper to die then but decided against it. But I think it shows that they didn't trust easily, which is understandable because of their past treatment, they lived and learned the hard way.

Yes but you say you loved watching the sky people because of the heart-rendering, impossible decisions they had to make to survive. In my opinion, Lexa was no different and was, also imo, even more compelling to watch just because she was like something out of the past, Game of Thrones mixed with Assassins Creed if you will, she was genius, she was a badass but most importantly, she was original and unique. I can think of many modern characters to compare Clarke, Raven etc. too but nobody that quite fits the bill of Lexa, she is really out there.

You are missing a very very significant point. Lexa did try to change the laws of her people. But she was only 16 when she became Commander. She is only 20 at death. Can you imagine how difficult it is for a girl of that age to even start standing up to her parents, let alone an entire tribal government and community that kills anyone who is not compliant with their laws?! That is such an unfair and an unrealistic expectation. It would have got her overthrown and killed instantly firstly, in fact it nearly did if you remember when the grounder lunged for her throat with the knife in season 3. Secondly, she probably believed the laws were there for good reason. She didn't create them but since she was a baby, she was trained to believe, this was the right way to live. And that it was the only way. She never met anyone to tell her otherwise until she met Clarke. And Clarke she cared about so much, that it made her see there was indeed a better way. And she didn't attack the sky people after Bellamy slaughtered her army, even though Clarke told her she did have the right. Even though it was against her own laws. She explained to Indra, Blood must not have Blood, because she wanted peace for her people. So you are wrong to say Lexa did nothing to change that. Lexa would still be alive if she did nothing.

I know you think torturing and killing is crazy, I do too, most sane people do!! But this is the world of The 100. Lexa did it because she was taught a Commander has to give certain punishments to make an example of people for how bad their crimes are. It was kind of their version of the death penalty, a life for a life. Finn killed many lives, young and old so they would make him experience the pain of those deaths. And Gustus effectively tried to poison his Commander. Nothing about it is right but it is unfair to take it out on a girl who wished for a better way but frankly, had no way of getting it until Clarke showed her. And Bellamy let's not forget, tortured Murphy. But he actually seemed to take pleasure in watching him suffer because it was Murphy. Lexa at least admitted she hated her job. But Bellamy did have a messed up upbringing too and I guess that is one of the outcomes of that.

Again as I say, I have to disagree with Lexa being flat, I thought she was wicked! But in general Alycia has been flat in other things I have seen her in. Like I said, apart from Lexa, it's like watching her in the same role in everything.

It was expected of Lexa as the Commander to put her own people first. If her people, if the conclave found out that she turned down an offer to free her own people just to help the Sky people who a) weren't under her rule at the time and b) would cause her to needlessly lose grounder lives over it, do you know that her reputation would be the least of her worries? She would be neglecting her responsibilities as a Commander to protect them, which she swore she would do. Indra was unimpressed because she knew what Octavia meant to Lincoln and how this decision would cause him to divide from them. But Lexa made a difficult political decision on the spot. Granted, Clarke as a Sky Person might not have done that because a) she wasn't technically sworn as the leader to protect anyone, Abby was and b) nobody would have been able to hurt Clarke because Abby, Kane, Bellamy, Raven, they all would have stood up for her and protected her. But who would have protected Lexa? Titus? Titus cared for Lexa but above all else, the law was the law and he could not have done anything if Lexa breached that, he would watch her die, helplessly. But I think, if Clarke was in Lexa's exact position as a grounder Commander who lived Lexa's life with nothing but a duty she was bound to by blood, I do indeed think Clarke would have done the same thing. Clarke can be ruthless in her decision making to you know if she thinks something is for the best. What happened with Finn for one. But you have to realise that it killed Lexa inside to have to do that to Clarke and if there had been another way she could fulfill both, she would have done it. But she stood with Clarke as long as she could, even when she rejected her advances. But in season 3, when Lexa apologised to Clarke, I don't think it dawned on her until then how much it hurt Clarke. She probably thought Clarke would understand or that at least, she wouldn't care. But when Clarke did care, Lexa was nearly in tears herself. And she proved later on that she would never abandon Clarke again when she chose to protect Clarke over her own people by breaking the blood must have blood rule. This is something that she was willing to risk her life for. But she never wanted to make Clarke feel guilty, she was just trying to make her understand.

Also, do you remember how, when Titus saw how Lexa was changing, he had a word to Clarke to basically abandon her people because he was afraid Lexa would be killed because of her. And Clarke said she couldn't do that and Titus said, "we have reached an impasse"....that was essentially Clarke doing the same thing. However, she didn't realise that it actually would get Lexa killed. That's why when the "possessed" Raven insinuated that Clarke had something to do with her death, Clarke got very upset about that. Because it was true.

Lexa wanted Clarke to agree to the 13th clan deal because Nia was on her case about the Sky people and so were the conclave. And Lexa could either do two things; initiate a war with them, or make them one of the family as a protective veil. She would therefore, never be forced to make another decision like at MW again. Then let's not forget, the reason she had Clarke "kidnapped" was because the Nia's soldiers were after Clarke, do you think she would take thar risk after Costia? It did make Lexa look weaker in the end but it also made Clarke number 1 on the hit list for everyone. Lexa wasn't jealous of Clarke, she loved her. Do you not think Lexa could easily have killed Clarke if she wanted to? But again she was faced with a horrible decision that nobody of her age should have to make. She could hardly say to Clarke, be my 13th clan because I love you and need to protect you. Instead she included the promise to Clarke that her people would be safe but the reason she couldn't let her leave was because she was in danger. But when she saw how much Clarke appeared to hate her and couldnt get over it, she did say she would take her to her mother, she wouldn't have forced Clarke to do it if she thought she would refuse because it would be painful to her. Clarke said no and she didn't give her an ultimatum as you suggest, she was ready and willing to let her go. At that point her position didn't mean that much to her that she would hurt Clarke for it, which considering, is actually a big thing since again, Lexa's life was under threat too.

Bellamy betrayed a few people, including Octavia and Lincoln but I do believe that after she had explained to him Lexa was going to not fight despite the fact he slaughtered her army and after he "listened to her, shouted at her and then tricked her by locking her in a room, yeah that was a bit of a betrayal. Granted he didn't trust Lexa but obviously he didn't trust Clarke either, or anyone really except Pike.

Either way she did sacrifice herself because she could have stood with Clarke at MW and that would have more than likely got her killed by her people or she could have done what she did, took time to grow a bit and then stand with Clarke and the Sky People which also got her killed when she could have just declared war after what Bellamy did. And she still would have kept Clarke because as she even said, Lexa had every right to do that. And then in the end, she could have had happy fun times with Clarke and with ALIE. Clarke would not have made her die again, Clarke desperately didn't want that. But Lexa did it because it was the right thing to do, not because she wanted to leave Clarke either.

It's true not everyone is like that. I mean before the Loo became what it has, I had spoken on a fan site like this and one girl was explaining how annoyed she was because on the zetaboards Clexa thread, there was a journalist from the Hypable articles who was supposedly posing as a user on the Clexa thread and then using what was being said as juicy stuff for their articles on the 100 and lesbians. When I heard that I thought it was so bad, I don't agree with the hateful conduct upon which many of them have treated others who like The 100 still but some who experienced stuff like that are maybe just on the defence. I agree though, it is sad when ships cause such severe divisions in fandoms but equally I don't approve of how showrunners like Jason have encouraged that sort of carry on to keep ratings alive.

I think it largely Eliza's personality tbh. Yeah I know, Bob seems like such a nice guy, he has time for the fans and he was completely supportive of Clarke being bi and of Clexa, I don't know why people would do that to him. At the end of the day, he just plays the character.

Yeah well I'm not sure if Alycia can be seen as a role model for it anymore after giving up the role but it was nice when it lasted when she was taking on a really positive influence in society with her work.

I don't think that Clarke and Bellamy's relationship has been that deep all along, they are just good allies. Lexa never just "left Clarke to be tortured" or "held her against her will" in an evil way, both points of which I already explained. But despite it seeming fast, they have been through a hell of a lot together and have grown very close because of it. If Clarke hadn't of distanced herself from Finn's memory like she did, maybe she would have let it be slower and that might have been more appropriate. But Clarke and Lexa understand eachother so well because they get eachother in a way nobody else does. I think it was very genuine and they were very much in love, not like a teen fling way either, it was real. As you say though, agree to disagree.

Lol, I'm not irritated at all, I'm really enjoying it and find comparing opinions interesting. As I say, soon when I get a chance I will put up the Travellers Blessing thing too and people can compare and see what they think, sorry this one was so delayed too.